Legislature(2013 - 2014)BARNES 124

01/30/2013 01:00 PM House RESOURCES


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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
*+ HB 77 LAND DISPOSALS/EXCHANGES; WATER RIGHTS TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
+= HB 80 CRUISE SHIP WASTEWATER DISCHARGE PERMITS TELECONFERENCED
Moved Out of Committee
        HB  80-CRUISE SHIP WASTEWATER DISCHARGE PERMITS                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:02:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR SADDLER  announced that the  first order of  business is                                                               
HOUSE  BILL  NO.  80,  "An  Act relating  to  the  regulation  of                                                               
wastewater discharge  from commercial passenger vessels  in state                                                               
waters; and providing for an effective date."                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR SADDLER  noted that Amendments  6 and 7,  distributed at                                                               
the   committee's  1/28/13   meeting,  have   been  replaced   by                                                               
amendments  6.1 and  7.1.   He requested  Representative Tarr  to                                                               
continue her  discussion of  Amendment 5,  labeled 28-GH1987\A.6,                                                               
Nauman, 1/26/13, which she had  moved for adoption on 1/28/13 and                                                               
to which  Representatives Johnson and Hawker,  and Co-Chair Feige                                                               
had objected.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:03:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TARR resumed her  discussion of Amendment 5, which                                                               
read:                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, following line 22:                                                                                                 
     Insert new bill sections to read:                                                                                          
        "* Sec. 5. AS 46.03.463(h) is amended to read:                                                                      
          (h)  The provisions of (a) - (f), and (i) of this                                                                 
     section  do  not  apply  to  discharges  made  for  the                                                                    
     purpose  of  securing  the  safety  of  the  commercial                                                                    
     passenger  vessel   or  saving  life  at   sea  if  all                                                                    
     reasonable precautions have been  taken for the purpose                                                                    
     of preventing or minimizing the discharge.                                                                                 
        * Sec.  6. AS 46.03.463 is  amended by adding  a new                                                                  
     subsection to read:                                                                                                        
          (i)  Except as provided in (h) of this section or                                                                     
     AS 46.03.462(c),  a person  may  not discharge  sewage,                                                                    
     graywater,  or  other   wastewater  from  a  commercial                                                                    
     passenger vessel  into the marine  waters of  the state                                                                    
     that has a copper concentration  of more than two parts                                                                    
     per billion  for more than  10 minutes with  a dilution                                                                    
     factor not greater than 50,000."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TARR  said that given the  scientific research and                                                               
concern  about copper  levels, Amendment  5 would  be appropriate                                                               
because it would  set in statute a copper level  of two parts per                                                               
billion (ppb) rather than the current  level of three ppb.  While                                                               
appreciating the  Department of Environmental  Conservation (DEC)                                                               
might  prefer doing  this  in regulation,  she  said Amendment  5                                                               
would give the public peace of  mind that the state is doing what                                                               
it can to protect its salmon.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:04:43 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
LYNN   TOMICH   KENT,   Deputy  Commissioner,   Office   of   the                                                               
Commissioner,  Department  of Environmental  Conservation  (DEC),                                                               
stated DEC  has concerns about  Amendment 5 because it  gets into                                                               
the types  of very specific  permitting conditions  and standards                                                               
that the  department does by regulation  and permits.  It  is not                                                               
based  on  science;  DEC's current  water  quality  criteria  for                                                               
protection of marine  aquatic life are based on  the most current                                                               
science  regarding the  effects of  copper on  marine life.   She                                                               
said the two  ppb limit in the amendment is  likely based on some                                                               
fairly recent studies  that identified a two  microgram per liter                                                               
level that was  discussed in studies on salmonids  in fresh water                                                               
and  the  behavioral impacts  of  low  levels  of copper  on  the                                                               
behavior of  the fish.   She said  the researchers in  that study                                                               
have indicated  that their work  is not applicable to  the marine                                                               
environment, for which there are  not yet any studies, because of                                                               
the  differing  buffering  capabilities   in  marine  waters  and                                                               
because  researchers have  not looked  at  how the  physiological                                                               
changes that take place in fish  when they move from saltwater to                                                               
freshwater.   More  research  is  being done  in  this area,  she                                                               
continued,  and DEC  will be  look at  the latest  research again                                                               
next year when more information is  available.  She said DEC does                                                               
update its water  quality standards when new  and better research                                                               
drives  a  change  in  those  standards.   Ms.  Kent  added  that                                                               
Amendment 5  would essentially prohibit discharges  when a vessel                                                               
is stationary,  and last year  only seven vessels  were permitted                                                               
to  discharge  while  they were  stationary.    Implementing  the                                                               
amendment would be difficult because  the vessels do not have the                                                               
ability to  continuously monitor  for copper.   It  is done  in a                                                               
laboratory setting, so  a ship would not know  precisely when its                                                               
levels dipped below the two ppb.   Also, the 10 minute limitation                                                               
would be difficult  to figure out because the  amendment does not                                                               
describe how often  a vessel could have that 10  minute window to                                                               
discharge.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:07:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR FEIGE  recalled Commissioner  Hartig stating  during his                                                               
original  presentation  that  the  limits are  set  by  the  U.S.                                                               
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA).                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. KENT confirmed  this as correct, adding that for  most of its                                                               
standards  DEC adopts  federal developed  criteria.   In  further                                                               
response,  she  confirmed  there  is  an  extensive  process  for                                                               
setting  those particular  limits that  includes quite  a bit  of                                                               
review, oversight,  and opportunities  for entities to  weigh in.                                                               
She  said the  standards  are set  through  a significant  effort                                                               
looking at  the toxic effects  on a multitude of  different types                                                               
of organisms  and plants.   The EPA generally does  those studies                                                               
or relies on studies done by  others and adopts criteria that are                                                               
suitable for  the country.   Alaska normally adopts  the criteria                                                               
developed by  EPA because it  does not  have the resources  to do                                                               
that kind  of independent  study work.   Changing  Alaska's water                                                               
quality  criteria is  an  extensive process  that  starts with  a                                                               
public notice asking people to  come forward with any new studies                                                               
or  research   that  would  affect  the   state's  water  quality                                                               
standards.   The department then  sifts through  that information                                                               
to  determine  whether  there is  sufficient  science  to  change                                                               
criteria  and, if  so, that  is proposed  as a  regulation change                                                               
which also undergoes a public  review process.  Once that process                                                               
is done,  and assuming DEC  adopts the revised criteria,  it must                                                               
be approved by EPA before the department can use it.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:09:25 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON, noting  that HB 80 would do  away with the                                                               
Cruise Ship Wastewater Science  Advisory Panel ("Science Advisory                                                               
Panel"),  inquired  how  much  data and  what  process  would  be                                                               
necessary for  changing the EPA  standard, which is  set country-                                                               
wide for a  multitude of plants and animals, to  make the state's                                                               
regulatory process override for salmon.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. KENT  answered that the  Science Advisory Panel did  not look                                                               
at the  water quality standards  to determine whether  it thought                                                               
them appropriate  or protective due  to the process  required for                                                               
revising  the  standards.    However, what  DEC  would  look  for                                                               
through that public process is  peer reviewed scientific research                                                               
that is applicable  to the standards.  So, if  the standards look                                                               
at chronic effects  and acute effects, and if  there was research                                                               
applicable  to  marine  waters  that  demonstrated  an  olfactory                                                               
behavioral   problem  with   salmon  that   could  affect   their                                                               
survivability and  reproductive ability,  then DEC would  rely on                                                               
that standard  to propose  a new water  quality criterion.   This                                                               
new criteria would then go to  public review and notice, and then                                                               
it would go to EPA for final approval.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:11:37 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK  asked how tests are  currently conducted for                                                               
determining copper levels.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. KENT  replied DEC requires  the cruise companies to  test for                                                               
copper and  the other metals,  but it is  a sample that  is taken                                                               
and  then transferred  to a  laboratory for  analysis.   Over 800                                                               
monitoring samples  from cruise  ships have  been taken  over the                                                               
last 5 years.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK   inquired  what  would  have   to  be  done                                                               
differently if the standard was changed.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS.  KENT responded  the monitoring  and analytical  requirements                                                               
for how a sample  is tested would remain the same.   If the water                                                               
quality  standard  changed or  a  permit  standard changed  -  an                                                               
effluent limit changed  - DEC would compare the  results from the                                                               
analysis at the laboratory to the permitted amount.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:12:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  said he  did  not  understand how  copper                                                               
levels could be  measured if the standard is changed  from end of                                                               
pipe to  a mixing  zone while  underway, given  that the  edge of                                                               
such a mixing zone cannot be determined.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. KENT answered that for  any permitted discharge with a mixing                                                               
zone, modeling is done to calculate  the size of the mixing zone.                                                               
This  is done  in addition  to all  the other  criteria that  are                                                               
required for DEC to approve a  mixing zone.  The department looks                                                               
at the  past data and  the concentrations of the  contaminant and                                                               
employs the same  models that are used throughout  the country to                                                               
look  at dispersion  of that  contaminant  in a  water body  with                                                               
certain characteristics.   Mixing  in the water  body, freshwater                                                               
lenses, other  inputs, currents, and incoming  and outgoing tides                                                               
are looked at  to calculate how big that area  might be where the                                                               
quality standard  would be  exceeded based on  the level  that is                                                               
being  discharged.   Many  of  DEC's  permits with  a  stationary                                                               
component  require  the permittee  to  monitor  the edge  of  the                                                               
mixing  zone to  verify  those  models and,  in  most cases,  the                                                               
models are  pretty good  at predicting  the distance  needed from                                                               
the discharge to  meet the water quality standard.   For a cruise                                                               
ship that is  underway with a 50,000:1  dilution, measurements in                                                               
the water  body would be  unable to identify  concentrations that                                                               
could be attributed  to the vessel because of the  vast amount of                                                               
dilution in such a short period of time.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:15:25 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  surmised that what  is being said  is that                                                               
the  size  of  the  mixing  zone will  be  expanded  to  whatever                                                               
dilution  ratio the  model indicates  is needed  for meeting  the                                                               
water  quality standard.   So,  if  science said  that copper  is                                                               
affecting  the olfactory  sense  of salmon,  the  model would  be                                                               
changed to double  the dilution factor to  half the concentration                                                               
and therefore the problem has been taken care of.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. KENT replied that the requirements  for a mixing zone must be                                                               
met  with every  renewal of  a permit,  most permits  being on  a                                                               
five-year cycle.  If a DEC  standard changed during the life of a                                                               
permit, the permittee would have  to demonstrate again all of the                                                               
requirements in order to be authorized  for a mixing zone; one of                                                               
those requirements is  that DEC can only authorize  a mixing zone                                                               
that is  as small as practicable.   At that permit  renewal cycle                                                               
DEC  would again  look  at whether  a vessel  is  using the  best                                                               
technology that  it can.  So,  if a standard changes  and becomes                                                               
more  stringent, that  does not  automatically  mean the  vessels                                                               
will get a bigger mixing zone.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:17:26 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK  understood the  test  uses  a dye  that  is                                                               
tracked; however, a concern is that  metals may not have the same                                                               
floating  or  mixing properties  as  dye.   He  inquired  whether                                                               
modeling has been done to determine similarity.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS.  KENT qualified  she is  not a  modeling guru,  but responded                                                               
that DEC generally  uses computer models to  calculate the mixing                                                               
and the dilution  of a contaminant in a surface  water body.  She                                                               
suggested  that the  aforementioned reference  is to  dye studies                                                               
that DEC worked on with EPA, where  EPA used a dye to verify that                                                               
the dilution  was as predicted  by the  models.  She  offered her                                                               
belief that there  was a very close correlation  between what was                                                               
modeled and what was actually found by those dye studies.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:18:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  SADDLER  noted  that  the  standards  proposed  in  the                                                               
amendment  of 2  ppb in  10 minutes  and [a  dilution factor  not                                                               
greater than] 50,000  are pretty precise.  He asked  the maker of                                                               
the amendment how those numbers were arrived at.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TARR answered  that when  she looked  through the                                                               
Science  Advisory   Panel's  preliminary  report,  this   was  an                                                               
evidence-based standard that was suggested would be appropriate.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:19:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK  inquired how deep below  the water's surface                                                               
the modeling goes for a "surface water body."                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. KENT replied  "surface water" is the jargon  used for oceans,                                                               
rivers, streams  - anything that  is not  ground water.   Some of                                                               
the  state's dischargers,  not cruise  ships, discharge  right at                                                               
the  bottom, some  part way  in the  column, and  so forth.   The                                                               
model looks at where in the water body is the discharge.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:20:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK asked  whether "at the bottom"  is the bottom                                                               
of the water body or the bottom of the ship.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. KENT responded a shore-based  facility may have its discharge                                                               
pipe  anchored  to the  bottom  of  the  water  body.   A  cruise                                                               
vessel's discharge  port is approximately  a couple  meters below                                                               
the water surface.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:20:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TARR read the following  from a scientific article                                                               
[Environmental Toxicology  and Chemistry, Vol. 22,  No. 10, 2003,                                                             
"Sublethal  Effects   of  Copper  on  Coho   Salmon:  Impacts  on                                                               
Nonoverlapping  Receptor  Pathways  in the  Peripheral  Olfactory                                                               
Nervous System"][original punctuation provided]:                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     Collectively, examination of  these data indicates that                                                                    
     copper  is  broadly  toxic   to  the  salmon  olfactory                                                                    
     nervous system.   Consequently, short-term  influxes of                                                                    
     copper to surface waters may interfere with olfactory-                                                                     
     mediated behaviors that are critical for the survival                                                                      
     and migratory success of wild salmonids.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TARR  further noted that 49  wastewater violations                                                               
occurred between  1999 and 2009 involving  discharges of ammonia,                                                               
copper, zinc,  and a variety  of others.   To provide a  sense of                                                               
scale  she pointed  out that  one cruise  ship per  day generates                                                               
21,000 gallons of  sewage and 170,000 gallons  of wastewater from                                                               
sinks, showers,  and laundry.  So,  the volume for 5  ships daily                                                               
in Juneau's port  is 100,000 gallons of sewage  daily and 850,000                                                               
gallons daily of  wastewater, which is something  to be concerned                                                               
and careful about.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:22:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON maintained his objection to Amendment 5.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
A roll call vote was taken.   Representatives Tarr and Tuck voted                                                               
in  favor of  Amendment 5.   Representatives  Seaton, P.  Wilson,                                                               
Hawker,  Johnson, Olson,  Feige,  and Saddler  voted against  it.                                                               
Therefore, Amendment 5 failed by a vote of 2-7.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:23:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TARR moved  to adopt  Amendment 6.1,  labeled 28-                                                               
GH1987\A.8, Nauman, 1/28/13, which read:                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, line 4, through page 2, line 9:                                                                                    
          Delete all material.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Page 2, line 10:                                                                                                           
          Delete "Sec. 2"                                                                                                     
          Insert "Section 1"                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Page 2, line 25, through page 3, line 5:                                                                                   
          Delete all material and insert:                                                                                       
        * Sec. 2. AS 46.03.462(e) is amended to read:                                                                         
          (e)  When issuing, reissuing, renewing, or                                                                            
     modifying  a  permit  required  under  (a)(1)  of  this                                                                    
     section, the department may  include effluent limits or                                                                    
     standards  less  stringent  than those  required  under                                                                    
     (b)(1) of this  section [FOR NOT MORE  THAN THREE YEARS                                                                    
     DURATION] if  the department finds that  a permittee is                                                                    
     using  economically   feasible  methods   of  pollution                                                                    
     prevention,  control,  and   treatment  the  department                                                                    
     considers to  be the most technologically  effective in                                                                    
     controlling  all wastes  and  other  substances in  the                                                                    
     discharge  but is  unable  to  achieve compliance  with                                                                    
     Alaska  Water   Quality  Standards  at  the   point  of                                                                    
     discharge.  A  permit  under this  subsection  may  not                                                                
     extend beyond December 31, 2020.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, line 6:                                                                                                            
          Delete "new subsections"                                                                                              
          Insert "a new subsection"                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, lines 13 - 22:                                                                                                     
          Delete all material.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, line 23:                                                                                                           
          Delete "46.03.462(f),"                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Objection was voiced by Representatives Johnson and Hawker.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TARR stated  she has been trying to find  a way to                                                               
strike a balance between the  cruise ship industry and protecting                                                               
Alaska's  coastal waters  and the  coastal economies  and fishing                                                               
industry that rely  on those waters.  She said  she has offered a                                                               
number of  amendments in the  hope of meeting her  comfort level,                                                               
which has not  happened.  She said Amendment 6.1  would allow the                                                               
cruise ship  industry to  continue working  on meeting  the water                                                               
quality standards set  in the 2006 Alaska  Cruise Ship Initiative                                                               
("2006 Initiative").   Amendment 6.1 would  extend the compliance                                                               
period  to December  31, 2020,  allowing  DEC to  issue a  5-year                                                               
permit  and extend  it all  the  way through  2020, allowing  the                                                               
copper issue to be revisited.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:24:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER maintained his objection to Amendment 6.1.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
A roll  call vote was  taken.  Representatives Seaton,  Tarr, and                                                               
Tuck voted  in favor of  Amendment 6.1.   Representatives Hawker,                                                               
Johnson, Olson, P.  Wilson, Feige, and Saddler  voted against it.                                                               
Therefore, Amendment 6.1 failed by a vote of 3-6.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:25:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK moved to adopt Amendment 7.1, labeled 28-                                                                   
GH1987\A.9, Nauman, 1/28/13, which read:                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Page 2, line 25, through page 3, line 5:                                                                                   
          Delete all material and insert:                                                                                       
        * Sec. 3. AS 46.03.462(e)  is repealed and reenacted                                                                  
     to read:                                                                                                                   
          "(e)  When issuing, reissuing, renewing, or                                                                           
     modifying  a  permit  required  under  (a)(1)  of  this                                                                    
     section,   the   department   may  only   include   the                                                                    
     authorization  of  a  mixing   zone  for  a  commercial                                                                    
     passenger vessel if                                                                                                        
               (1)  that vessel employs an advanced                                                                             
     wastewater  treatment  system  that  falls  within  the                                                                    
     class  of systems  identified by  the department  under                                                                    
     (k)  of   this  section  or  employs   other  means  of                                                                    
     pollution prevention,  control, and treatment  that the                                                                    
     department  finds can  achieve  a  quality of  effluent                                                                    
     that  is comparable  to  that of  one  or more  vessels                                                                    
     employing an advanced wastewater treatment system; and                                                                     
               (2)  the permit prohibits the discharge of                                                                       
     untreated sewage,  treated sewage, graywater,  or other                                                                    
     wastewater  within  three  geographical  miles  of  the                                                                    
     coastline of the  state unless a discharge  is made for                                                                    
     the purpose  of securing  the safety of  the commercial                                                                    
     passenger  vessel  or  saving   life  at  sea  and  all                                                                    
     reasonable precautions have been  taken for the purpose                                                                    
     of  preventing or  minimizing  the  discharge; in  this                                                                    
     paragraph, "coastline" has the  meaning given to "coast                                                                    
     line" in 43. U.S.C. 1301."                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, following line 6:                                                                                                  
     Insert a new subsection to read:                                                                                           
          "(i)  Under (e)(1) of this section, if a                                                                              
     commercial   passenger  vessel   employs  an   advanced                                                                    
     wastewater   treatment   system  that   satisfies   the                                                                    
     requirements of (e)(1) of  this section, the department                                                                    
     shall  find the  commercial passenger  vessel satisfies                                                                    
     all state  technology-based treatment  requirements for                                                                    
     authorization of a mixing zone."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Reletter the following subsections accordingly.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, line 15:                                                                                                           
          Delete "(e)"                                                                                                          
          Insert "(e)(1)"                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Objection  was voiced  by  Representatives  Johnson, Hawker,  and                                                               
Olson.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:26:05 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK explained  that if mixing zones  are going to                                                               
be allowed  he would like  to ensure  that those zones  are three                                                               
geographical miles away from the  coastline where a lot of human,                                                               
plant, and mammal activity occurs.   He said he did not propose a                                                               
farther  distance  because  that would  eliminate  any  discharge                                                               
within waters controlled by the State  of Alaska.  He shared that                                                               
California has implemented no mixing  zones within three miles of                                                               
its entire  coastline, a standard  he thinks Alaska  should have.                                                               
However, he  did not want to  jump into that standard  right away                                                               
because the ships  might not have holding tanks  that would allow                                                               
them to go out that far.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK pointed  out that  because of  the shape  of                                                               
Alaska's coastline, three  miles might create a  "donut hole," or                                                               
gap, where ships would go  to dump, creating excessive dumping in                                                               
one spot.  Therefore, he moved  to amend line 13 of Amendment 7.1                                                               
by  deleting  "three"  and inserting  "two"  geographical  miles.                                                               
There  being no  objection, the  amendment to  the amendment  was                                                               
adopted.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:28:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON understood that  Amendment 7.1, as amended,                                                               
would permit the discharge of  wastewater that did not meet water                                                               
quality standards.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK confirmed that this is correct.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:28:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE P. WILSON asked how  big the holding tanks are and                                                               
how far from the coastline do these tanks allow the ships to go.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  SADDLER requested  Ms.  Kent to  address the  practical                                                               
effects of Amendment 7.1, as amended.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. KENT  replied she does  not have that  data with her,  but of                                                               
the 28 or so large cruise  ships that register to come to Alaska,                                                               
10 do not  discharge in Alaska waters.  These  10 ships either go                                                               
outside  [state waters]  or discharge  in a  port facility.   The                                                               
rest have  the holding capacity  to go  into outside waters.   In                                                               
further response, she confirmed  that shore-based facilities have                                                               
less stringent  discharge requirements than do  the cruise ships;                                                               
therefore any cruise ship wastewater  going through a shore-based                                                               
facility would not  be treated to as high a  degree and would not                                                               
be as clean in terms of the effluent.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:30:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE P.  WILSON inquired why, then,  would cruise ships                                                               
be allowed to discharge into  municipal facilities.  She surmised                                                               
it would  be better to  allow the  ships to discharge  where they                                                               
are at.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. KENT  responded DEC regulates the  discharge from facilities,                                                               
not who can  discharge into a facility.  Right  now, DEC does not                                                               
prohibit  a   cruise  ship  from   discharging  to   a  municipal                                                               
wastewater treatment system.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TARR pointed out  that the ship's wastewater would                                                               
be treated  in the municipal wastewater  treatment system instead                                                               
of untreated wastewater from the  ship being discharged [into the                                                               
ocean].                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. KENT  added that the  wastewater is treated at  the municipal                                                               
system, but the  level of treatment it receives  at the municipal                                                               
treatment  system is  not  as good  as  it would  be  if it  were                                                               
treated through the advanced  wastewater treatment system onboard                                                               
the cruise ship.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:32:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TARR noted that California  has no mixing zones as                                                               
well as  no discharge in  its coastal  waters.  She  related that                                                               
even treated  sewage can contain pathogens,  nutrients, and other                                                               
contaminants  that  affect  human and  environmental  health  and                                                               
economic productivity.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK stated that Amendment  7.1, as amended, is an                                                               
attempt to work with the industry.   He wants the cruise ships to                                                               
be efficient  with their cruises and  does not want them  to have                                                               
to skip port  facilities, so he is trying to  ease into having no                                                               
mixing zones close to shore.   He added that with stationary port                                                               
facilities the location is known,  measurements can be taken, and                                                               
location of the  edges is known, whereas testing  is not accurate                                                               
for moving  ships.  He said  there is a big  difference between a                                                               
traveling city and a stationary  city; salmon can navigate around                                                               
a stationary  area.   An easy solution  would be  allowing cruise                                                               
ships to dump into municipal facilities where there is control.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:34:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON maintained his objection.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
A roll call vote was taken.   Representatives Tarr and Tuck voted                                                               
in favor of Amendment 7.1,  as amended.  Representatives Johnson,                                                               
Olson,  Seaton,  P.  Wilson, Hawker,  Feige,  and  Saddler  voted                                                               
against it.  Therefore, Amendment 7.1 failed by a vote of 2-7.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:35:25 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR SADDLER announced the bill is now before the committee.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  said  HB  80  concerns  him  for  several                                                               
reasons, one  being overlapping mixing zones  from numerous ships                                                               
using  the  same  area  for  mixing zones.    He  said  the  2006                                                               
Initiative  stimulated  DEC and  the  industry  to go  through  a                                                               
process of reducing  toxins being put into Alaska's  waters.  The                                                               
mixing zones  will not be  monitored and individual  vessels will                                                               
again be able to be lax like  they were in the past, resulting in                                                               
more  toxic  discharge  and   cumulative  discharge  in  Alaska's                                                               
waters.   Amendment 2  [labeled 28-GH1987\A.3,  Nauman, 1/26/13],                                                               
which he  put forward [on  1/28/13] and  which did not  pass, was                                                               
significant in that  it would have disallowed  mixing zone cruise                                                               
ship  discharges  in   legislatively  designated  state  critical                                                               
habitat areas.   While DEC has said it wants  the ability to make                                                               
that decision on its own, the  decision is not the question.  The                                                               
question  is  whether  the  legislature  is  going  to  give  its                                                               
authority  over to  the administration  to administratively  make                                                               
the decision  to allow  cruise ship  mixing zone  discharges into                                                               
critical  habitat.   While he  will not  vote against  moving the                                                               
bill from committee,  he said the bill does not  have his support                                                               
at  this  time for  the  aforementioned  reasons.   Additionally,                                                               
extension of the current permit to  allow science to catch up may                                                               
have accomplished  the stringent  control of pollutants  in state                                                               
waters that was expressed in the 2006 Initiative.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:38:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  P. WILSON  asked whether  HB 80  would lower  the                                                               
state's standards.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. KENT replied, "No."                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:39:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR FEIGE said  the cruise ship industry  has been operating                                                               
for about  three years under  a general permit that  allows ships                                                               
to discharge, but  never once during discussion of  the bill were                                                               
any instances  brought up as  to actual problems  with discharges                                                               
while  operating under  this general  permit.   Arguments against                                                               
the bill  were not, in his  opinion, convincing-enough scientific                                                               
evidence  to  warrant  any  changes in  the  bill  as  presented.                                                               
Regarding  overall philosophy,  he  recounted that  while he  was                                                               
training to be  a military officer, the mantra was  to never make                                                               
a rule that  cannot be enforced.  The corollary  here is to never                                                               
make  a rule  that  cannot  be achieved.    The scientific  panel                                                               
appointed by the  legislature delivered a report  saying that the                                                               
advanced wastewater  treatment systems are the  best economically                                                               
feasible  technology available  today and,  more than  likely, in                                                               
the  near  future.   The  DEC  is  capable of  tracking  emerging                                                               
technology,  and  for  the time  being  the  advanced  wastewater                                                               
treatment  systems  will  satisfy the  legislature's  requirement                                                               
that the  state's waters stay  as pristine as possible  yet still                                                               
allow  commerce and  tourism activity  to continue.   He  said he                                                               
will therefore be voting in favor of the bill.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:41:47 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER stated  that passage of HB 80  will free up                                                               
resources,  therefore the  bill  should have  a negative,  rather                                                               
than a  zero, fiscal  note.  He  asked for there  to be  truth in                                                               
budgeting  when   resources  are  freed  up;   for  example,  DEC                                                               
indicated  earlier that  the freed-up  resources will  be put  to                                                               
work doing something else.   He requested that the department ask                                                               
for  resources when  it needs  to accomplish  something else  and                                                               
that its fiscal notes reflect relinquished resources.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:43:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK said  he is  concerned about  backsliding on                                                               
what the  public put forth [in  the 2006 Initiative].   A balance                                                               
can be achieved between the  cruise industry and keeping Alaska's                                                               
waters pristine  and good for coastal  economies, recreation, and                                                               
public health.  Fifteen violations  occurred in 2011 and he wants                                                               
to ensure  the state  helps the industry  reach the  standards so                                                               
there  are no  violations.   Because  this was  the  goal of  the                                                               
Science Advisory  Panel, he  is disheartened to  see it  go away.                                                               
While  the state  does not  want to  have a  rule that  cannot be                                                               
achieved, the  state must also  have a  vision and must  also set                                                               
goals.   He recalled reading about  a patent officer who,  in the                                                               
late 1800s  or early 1900s,  stated that the patent  office might                                                               
as  well be  closed because  everything that  can be  invented is                                                               
already invented.   Engineering is only getting  better and today                                                               
miniaturization  is driving  economies, and  this applies  to the                                                               
cruise  ship wastewater  treatment systems  and their  wastewater                                                               
holding tanks.  Some of  the amendments were achievable, he said,                                                               
and he  is concerned  about giving DEC  the flexibility  to allow                                                               
mixing zones  in critical habitat  areas.   No dumping at  all is                                                               
allowed  in  Glacier Bay  National  Park  and Preserve,  yet  the                                                               
newspaper reported that the [water  from] four swimming pools was                                                               
dumped into Glacier  Bay.  He said he will  not be supporting the                                                               
bill because it does not set  goals and work with the industry to                                                               
get there, and is a step backwards.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:46:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TARR  stated she will  not be supporting  the bill                                                               
at  this time.    As  someone with  a  science  background it  is                                                               
disappointing  to her.    She  recalled that  things  used to  be                                                               
regulated  under the  saying that  the solution  to pollution  is                                                               
dilution.  Regulation has long since  moved on from that, so this                                                               
is a terrible  step backwards.  In addition to  the violations in                                                               
2011,  there  were 32  wastewater  violations  in 2009.    Alaska                                                               
should be encouraging new developments,  but now it will not keep                                                               
its status  as a leader.   In five years Alaska  will have missed                                                               
the boat  for protecting salmon.   She offered her hope  that the                                                               
legislature will not  be looking back on this  and regretting its                                                               
move today.  Steps should have  been taken to at least extend the                                                               
compliance period to continue working on this.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:47:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE P. WILSON said nothing  more can be done than what                                                               
is currently being done.   Additionally, the annual cost of about                                                               
$100,000 for  the Science  Advisory Panel  would continue  for an                                                               
undetermined amount  of time.   She said  she feels  justified in                                                               
voting yes because  the standards are not  being lowered, nothing                                                               
more can be  done at this point in time,  and general fund monies                                                               
could  be used  for  something else,  especially  given that  the                                                               
state is $400 million short.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:49:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON stated  that California's  solution to  a                                                               
problem with  permitting is  to just say  no rather  than working                                                               
through it  and allowing industry  to find  a solution.   He does                                                               
not  want to  be  compared to  California and  he  does not  want                                                               
Alaska to be a state that just says  no.  He wants Alaska to be a                                                               
state  that continues  to work  with industry  so that  maybe the                                                               
state can  turn off the "not  open for business" sign  that seems                                                               
to have been placed at its borders.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:50:14 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  FEIGE moved  to  report  HB 80  out  of committee  with                                                               
individual  recommendations and  the  accompanying [zero]  fiscal                                                               
notes.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK objected.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
A  roll call  vote was  taken.   Representatives Johnson,  Olson,                                                               
Seaton, P. Wilson,  Hawker, Feige, and Saddler voted  in favor of                                                               
HB  80.    Representatives  Tarr   and  Tuck  voted  against  it.                                                               
Therefore,  HB  80  was  reported  out  of  the  House  Resources                                                               
Standing Committee by a vote of 7-2.                                                                                            

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
HB80 Amendment 1.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 80
HB80 Amendment 2.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 80
HB80 Amendment 3.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 80
HB80 Amendment 4.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 80
HB80 Amendment 5.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 80
HB80 Amendment 6.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 80
HB80 Amendment 7.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 80
HB36 Clean Water Act Overview.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 36
HB36 DMVA Letter.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 36
HB36 DoD Environmental Region 10 Letter.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 36
HB36 Fiscal Note DEC.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 36
HB36 Sponsor Statement.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 36
HB36 Version A.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 36
HB 77 Briefing Paper 1 29 13.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 77
HB 77 HRES Hearing Request Memo.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 77
HB 77 Permitting Reform Transmittal Letter.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 77
HB 77 Sectional Analysis 1.30.13.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 77
HB0077.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 77
HB0077-1-2-011813-DNR-N.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 77
HB0077-2-2-011813-DFG-N.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 77
HB77 Water briefing points.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 77
HB77 HRES - Overview by Comm. Sullivan.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 77
HB80 Franklin Dock Ent. Letter.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 80
HB80 Village of Kake Letter.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 80
HB 80 DEC Response to CCTHITA 2.6.13.pdf HRES 1/30/2013 1:00:00 PM
HB 80